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Free Speech?

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This entry was posted on 6/7/2007 10:53 PM and is filed under uncategorized.

I almost felt that we were in the PRC with the reaction to me waving a flag of the Republic of China (Taiwan) (thanks for letting me borrow it for the match Judge) and Tibet.  At about halftime, so people from Tibet came and joined us and brought their flags with us.  They told of the oppression that Tibet has faced under the Chinese Communist government.  In about the 60th minute, I pulled the ROC flag out and started waving it.  Among our chants we yelled, "We all cheer for basic human rights!" and "There's only one free China!"  and my favorite, "Chairman Mao liked little girls, Chairman Mao liked little girls, Chairman Mao liked little girls, he was a sick fuck!"  Also, we posted a sign that said in Chinese "6-4" for June 4th the day that demonstrators  were slaughtered at Tienanmen Square in 1989 for simply asking their unelected government for freedom.  After a couple of minutes, a (I assume) Chinese guy came down and tried to get me to wave a PRC flag and tried to tell me it was the real China.  I told him that as far as I was concerned that there was only one free China and when he tried to convince me further I simply said well then fuck the People's Republic!" and turned around and continued to wave my flag.  About two minutes later, one of the Chinese officials, I assume the political officer (as the Soviets would call him the zampolit), stopped the game and demanded that not only do we stop waving our flags but take the sign down.  He himself tore the sign down.  The Chinese team was about to walk off the field if I did not put my flag down and I was asked nicely by Trino Martinez to put it down.  Since I had my five-year-old daughter standing next to me (my wife was sitting in the next section over with my two-year-old daughter), and I did not want to get hauled off.  So I put it down.

In about the 89th minute, Colin, another member of RCB started back with waving the Tibet flag with the Tibetans.  He was asked to stop and refused and was escorted out of the stadium.  Security also tried to confiscate his flag, which was his private property and did not constitute something that could ever pose a physical danger to anyone, but thankfully he stood firm and refused to give it to them.

After the final whistle, I resumed waving the ROC flag.  This sparked another incident with the Chinese political officer and security.  I was told to give them my flag, which I refused to do (especially since it wasn't actually my flag).  I was told to put it down or I would be kicked out of the stadium.  I responded that it was my free speech right to have the flag and that while they had the right to expel me from private property, they could not detain me.  They said that the Chinese found the flag offensive, to which I replied that I found their flag offensive and that the stars on their flag represented regions like Tibet that they militarily occupied and oppressed, but if they would take their flag down, I would gladly take mine down.  At this point the security guy just called in a description of my on his radio.  By this time, my wife and other daughter had joined me and together (me carrying the two-year-old) we walked calmly out of the stadium.  I kept the flag, unfurled, on my shoulder the whole time I was walking out, I was not about to roll it up so that a bunch of communist barbarians would not be offended. 

On the drive home, I was listening to the post-game show and was sickened by the refusal to address anything that happened.  I understand why it was not discussed, but I still cannot help but feel ashamed that the mouthpieces of the club that I support were intent on kissing the asses of the Chinese.  I do not understand why the Chinese get a free pass for their oppression and trampling on human rights while a place like South Africa, during Apartheid was banned from international competitions. 

I am so upset right now, but tomorrow I will post some pics to show what happened.  Wait, got a link to some video shot of the incident courtesy of my friend Judge.

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Comments

    • 6/8/2007 1:18 AM JUDGE DREDD wrote:
      What a fun time that was!!! Frank got on the post match show and talked. We also made the news!
      Reply to this
      1. 6/8/2007 7:01 AM RCB Donk wrote:
        I didn't do that just because it was fun.  I love how we made the news, I hope that this gets even more attention.  Oh and for those who do not realize this, Rice-Eccles stadium is not private property, it is actually a state-owned facility since the University of Utah is a public, state-owned, University.

        Reply to this
    • 6/8/2007 8:35 AM Pat Eyler wrote:
      hey, the protest made the SLTrib (sort of):
      http://www.sltrib.com/realsaltlake/ci_6090697

      check out the last paragraph.
      Reply to this
    • 6/8/2007 9:13 AM beaveman wrote:
      It bothers me that not a word about this was mentioned in the Deseret News...

      Way to go Donk!
      Reply to this
      1. 6/8/2007 9:20 AM RCB Donk wrote:
        It just shows how willing too many in the US are to kiss China's ass. 

        Reply to this
      2. 6/8/2007 11:28 AM Pat Eyler wrote:
        Yeah, I wrote to them about it. Send the author an email -- or anyone up the editorial food chain to let them know you're unhappy.
        Reply to this
      3. 6/8/2007 8:38 PM JUDGE DREDD wrote:
        They have contacted Donk and I. They are working on a story using my pics and video.
        Reply to this
        1. 6/8/2007 10:05 PM RCB Donk wrote:
          Thanks again for the pics Judge.

          Reply to this
    • 6/8/2007 10:56 AM Coldyak wrote:
      Thanks for being vocal and supportive for the oppression caused by China's policy. Events like yesterday at the game where a person cannot express their own feelings about China's oppressive regime reminds me again and again that the world is caving into China's threats and warnings.
      Reply to this
    • 6/8/2007 12:26 PM Jimmy wrote:
      I wrote a response piece here:

      http://bluebloodedjourno.blogspot.com/2007/06/commies-1-freedom-of-expression-nil.html

      Keep up the good fight!
      Reply to this
    • 6/8/2007 12:33 PM Bonji wrote:
      Not that I think a soccer match is the ideal spot for a political protest, but I can't believe the stadium...in America...would try to stifle freedom of speech like that. There must have been something in the contract between RSL and China about political protest. You guys should be all over the media with this one. Call the ACLU. That is horse crap.
      Reply to this
      1. 6/8/2007 12:42 PM RCB Donk wrote:

        I'm working on that.  Look for something possibly on KSL Nightside tonight.


        Reply to this
    • 6/9/2007 2:00 AM shaster wrote:
      Frankly, the street has two ways. You can understand how Chinese feel about this with your action. Just imagine during Olympic 2008, if some Chinese fans display an Osama Bin Ladin picture and put a sign like "Revenge is sweet" and "Go after them, Osama!" Or put a "Genocide Iraq" on US flag, what the reaction for Americans?
      Reply to this
      1. 6/9/2007 8:29 AM RCB Donk wrote:
        You are trying to compare two things that are not at all similar.  China is the one who, like Osama bin Laden, attacked Tibet.  While the United States is hardly perfect, we have a right to question our leaders.  Our Consititution guarentees our citizens the right to peacefully petition our government for a redress of grievance.  We can peacefully assemble and demand our government listen to what we want.  There have been many protests against the war in Iraq, I have personally participated in some.  What happens in China when someone questions the government?  I remember what happened June 4, 1989 in Tienanmen Square as does the rest of the world. 

        And if someone in China, like in Mexico in 2001, started to should Osama, our team would and did continue to play.  We believe you have a right to say what you want, even if China's government does not.

        Reply to this
        1. 6/9/2007 12:44 PM sha wrote:
          First of all, your opinion about Osama and Tibet are ONLY your side of opinion, and there are other sides of opinion too. US constitution gives your rights to peacefully petition your government, but I don't see it says that you can go against other government. Like that guy tried to overthrew Lao's government. If you have political opinion against Chinese government, you should go to protest in Chinese Embassey, and not in a PRIVATE party that tries to promote friendship between two people.

          As American myself, I would walk out and protest about Osama thing in Mexico. Mexican authority did take issue on those scums, and appologizes to Americans.

          My problem is that many Americans like you just think that we are so much moral superior so we have the rights to decide all people's life in other countries but not other way around. It is called cultural imperialism. That is why Americans are hated around the WHOLE world now.
          Reply to this
          1. 6/9/2007 2:37 PM RCB Donk wrote:
            I totally understand that the views expressed here are my opinion, this is a blog and that is the purpose of a blog.  Talking about overthrowing governments is not my intention if that overthrow is violent.  If I protest peacefully like for example Gandhi, I can protest what I choose.  I chose to protest at the soccer match quite simply because it was the best place to make the point.  Questioning the status quo should be encouraged, especialy if the status quo is wrong like in China.  Protesting against oppression on the part of a government is one thing that will help change that government in my opinion.  One major issue I see with China is that they will not even acknowledge their mistakes.  The Germans fully acknowledge the Holocaust, the United States has acknowledged the oppression of the Native Americans, China on the other hand will not even tolerate a reference to Tienanmen Square at a soccer game or a reminder that there is in fact a free China on Taiwan.

            Let's talk about something more important, right and wrong.  If it's cultural imperialism to speak out and say that people need their own voice to decide their own fate which is right, which is exactly what I have been trying to do, then I guess I'm a cultural imperialist.  Were the people in Tienanamen Square in wrong?  All they were doing was asking for freedom.  It is not at all wrong for anyone to peacefully petition their government, which happen at Tienanamen Square, but it is wrong for that government to respond with violence to those asking peacefully for change.  The desire for freedom is not an American cultural quirk, it is a universal desire of all human beings.

            Reply to this
            1. 6/10/2007 11:26 PM sha wrote:
              The problem is not about if you have right to express your political opinion but you don't cry when RSL management threw you out of the game. Why? Because like if you want to protest against G-8, you can do it outside the premeter, but if you want to do it inside premeter, then you will be arrested no matter your freedom of speech. Like you can protect outside a dinner party for people eating beef, but you cannot get a ticket in the party then jump on the table to kick the dishes around. The security guides will threw you out of the party because you interfered their function. Same as RSL signed an agreement with Chinese soccer team to play a soccer game, and if there is anti-China political protest going on, the game will be suspended. So RSL works on their side of commitment to tell you that you either not interference with the game or you will be asked out.
              Reply to this
              1. 6/11/2007 12:42 PM RCB Donk wrote:
                I'm not disputing that free speech can be regulated with Time, Manner and Place.  In the absence of regulation, there should not be limits and there was no TMP limits established.  Had there been, I would have complied.

                Reply to this
              2. 6/14/2007 10:21 AM bodpa wrote:
                I don't know how you came up with this idea of thinking G-8's mannerism of handling free speech as a set standard. You like to offer examples to explain things here. Let me do that too. If that beef is your near and dear, let's say your beloved pet, so you don't think it is appropriate to go in the party where they "enjoying" beef, your beloved one, and express your feelings. In this case I will help you to express your feelings by bursting into the party. The same thing here, Taiwan, Tibet were expressing your feelings peacefully.
                Reply to this
        2. 6/12/2007 7:00 AM cc wrote:
          "we have a right to question our leaders."
          So what? So you are holy? You have the right to attack the guest in a friendly?

          "Our Consititution guarentees our citizens the right to peacefully petition our government for a redress of grievance"
          So what? So you can hurt other people's feeling whenever and however you want?
          Reply to this
          1. 6/12/2007 7:14 AM RCB Donk wrote:
            I would imagine that making someone register as a sex offender hurts their feelings too.  Need I say more?  If this ruffles China's feathers it's only because they refuse to admit these things happened, like their approach to Tienanmen Square.  And then the Chinese are upset that the Japanese will not acknowledge the Nanjing Massacre.

            Reply to this
      2. 6/14/2007 10:05 AM jamyan wrote:
        yes I understand where you stand. I think you are trying to be objective here but with a very subjective background as you try to compare Taiwan, Tibet, and fate of Tienanman square standing against PRC as with Osama against USA. I don't think you need any further explanations here for the same.
        Reply to this
    • 6/9/2007 5:37 AM Bodpa wrote:
      I think it is ridiculous to kick people out simply because they are waving flags. Usually it is not American ways, but American corporates like google to succumb to Communist China. In the case of google, it is in China. But in the case of Real Salt Lakes Officials' handling of peaceful protest, it is in great America and it is ridiculous to see and hear that these Utah officials stripping the right of its citizens to express their opinions.
      Reply to this
    • 6/9/2007 6:11 AM dave wrote:
      Good job, guys. I'm proud of you. I went to the US-PRC game here in Atlanta almost 30 years ago (man, I'm old!). Of course there were no protests or anything, seeing that it was Carter's home state. I guess people don't know about recent Chinese history, and have forgotten about Tianamen (sp?) Square, but I sure haven't .
      Reply to this
    • 6/10/2007 12:05 AM oussan wrote:
      Donk, if you're still thinking about a new domain name, here's a suggestion:

      www.firetrey.com

      I'm very disappointed by how quick he was to prejudge your protest as mere harrassment.

      From today's DesMoNews:

      Fitzgerald said the fans who were ejected weren't really interested in protesting China's politics and instead just wanted to harass and disrupt the Chinese team.
      Reply to this
    • 6/10/2007 12:51 AM Anonymous wrote:
      Hey stupid, how about I bring a banner that says "xx millions Native Indians slaughtered", or "US: murderers of Iraqis" to an US match eh? I guess you would be a little pissed off too eh? A ROC flag in a PRC match... LOL what an idiot you are.

      And FYI China is not a true communist country anymore. It's communist by name only. It's a single party oligarchy with a different standard of human rights compared to the West. Yes, China is not as free as the US, but at least we Chinese don't have to worry about sick psychos on a shooting spree in schools.
      Reply to this
      1. 6/10/2007 9:54 AM RCB Donk wrote:
        You are more than welcome to bring that banner, it's called free speech.  I have never said America is perfect, all I said is that we are allowed to question our leadership, something the Chinese do not tolerate.

        You don't have to worry about psychos having a shooting spree in school, you have to worry about psychos either rounding you up because you don't think the same as them or sending in tanks to slaughter people who are simply asking for freedom.  I'd much prefer the random psychos here than the ones who run China, at least the ones here don't have nuclear weapons and an army.  While China may not be still in the straight and narrow path of classical Marxism at least economically, the regime in charge is still as repressive as other communist countries.

        Reply to this
      2. 6/13/2007 8:16 AM MyLaowai wrote:
        Errr... Yes, you do. Have to worry about sick psychos on shooting sprees.

        I happen to live in China, and I happen to be reasonably well informed as to what goes on (far, far better than almost any Chinese), and there are shootings, bombings, mass poisonings, and murders on a daily basis.

        Few kindergartens in the US, for example, have their food poisoned by rival kindergartens. That it draws no outrage, criticism, or horror from the people says plenty about the mentality of the vast majority of the population.

        To those who are good at drawing parallels, let me add this:

        Hitler got his Olympics, too.
        Reply to this
    • 6/13/2007 8:09 AM MyLaowai wrote:
      Mate, I don't know who you are, but there's a martini on mu account next time you're in Shanghai.

      Congratulations and kudos to you, sir.
      Reply to this
    • 6/13/2007 5:14 PM Kevin S wrote:
      Sha, as you point out, free speech in America is, and should be, regulated. Private spaces, such as a dinner party, and places where safety and security are a real concern, such as the inside of a G8 meeting, are not places where just anyone who wants can go and do and say whatever he wants. However, a public stadium, like the one in question here, is very much a place where people can exercise their rights to free speech, particularly political speech. The First Amendment to the US Constitution was designed in part for just such an occasion.

      The Chinese National Team should respect the culture and laws of America and the right of the American people to have their own thoughts and opinions while they are in America. That does not mean that they should not refuse to play if they so choose, but to require the RSL officials to force the fans to stop exercising their speech is disrespectful to American culture and society. In the words the Chinese government typically uses in such situations, "They have hurt the feelings of the [American] people."

      However, it is not the Chinese who should really be criticized here. While the members of the Chinese National Team should try their best to respect American society and culture and abide by American law, they should not really be expected to understand American society, culture or law. Their reaction, while I absolutely do not condone it, is nothing less than expected.

      Rather, it is the American officials, the RSL management, who are to be criticized here. In the spirit of our free country and the First Amendment, the RSL management should have politely and clearly explained that they understood the Chinese complaints, but that in America people have the right to exercise free speech, that this right is protected by the First Amendment, and that, moreover, the exercise of free speech, particularly political speech, is an integral part of American society, and that they, therefore, would not ask those people waving those flags to stop exercising their political speech.
      Reply to this
    • 6/17/2007 8:02 PM Wahrlicht wrote:
      I'm absolutely gobsmacked that you've gotten any moral-relativism type arguments here. Kudos for taking a stand and the only shame of the whole incident is that the entire RSL cheering section wasn't decked out in Tibet flags. Wonder if China will be ready for the Olympics 'cause I sure hope a lot of foreigners visit the games in Tibet t-shirts carrying Taiwan flags.
      Reply to this
    • 6/18/2007 9:51 AM Mike wrote:
      While I respect the rights of free speech, I don't think a sport event is an ideal place to bring in politics. But that's just my opinion. I'm Chinese myself (living in Canada), and don't share the same views that you do regarding Taiwan or Tibet, but I admire the courage you had and your work to let out your opinions. These rights that we have are what separates the Chinese society from ours.

      Regarding getting kicked out of the stadium, perhaps it was more due to the heckling that was distracting the players than the political motives? I wasn't there, but from what I saw in the videos that may have been it.

      However I just have one gripe with your blog post...

      "I was not about to roll it up so that a bunch of communist barbarians would not be offended."

      I found that passage very offensive. I think you should know why as an intelligent human being.
      Reply to this
      1. 6/18/2007 10:09 PM RCB Donk wrote:
        That passage is not about the Chinese (hence I didn't say Chinese) but about communists.  I have said similar things about Czech communists (I'm half Czech) as well as Russian and Cuban communists.  Communism, in my opinion, is barbarous and members of the communist party (at least those in leadership positions, I know there are many different reasons people join the party, and most regular party members don't even believe the ideology).  If calling a communist party hack a barbarian I offended you, I'm not really sorry.  If you mistook this as a stab at the Chinese, it most certainly was not meant as such.

        Reply to this
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